British Airways Orders 6 Boeing 777-300ER's Rating Options

[BOEING777]

http://www.bashares.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=69...&highlight=

'We have ordered six new Boeing 777-300ER aircraft for delivery beginning in 2010. They are 23 per cent more fuel efficient than the Boeing 747-400 and give us additional flexibility in the longhaul fleet.

[BOEING777]

6 firm, 4 options.

http://library.corporate-ir.net/library/69...0809_010808.pdf

[longreach]

And they got 2010 slots. Very nice for BA. This deal must have been on the go for a while as I don't think 2010 slots for the 773ER are very common at all, if they exist at all.

[peasant]

My understanding is that this is a compensation/ interim lift deal for BA for the B787 delays. The early slots were from a OW partner, who were given incentives by seattle to move some deliveries around.

[Aurora]

A OW partner? IMO the likely candidates would be JL or CX.

[HorsePower]

I guess it means no room anymore for B747-8Intercontinental.

[mbflyer]

A OW partner? IMO the likely candidates would be JL or CX.

BA says jump and Boeng says how high? The only bad news is the lack of publicity, presumably to placate Airbus' Euro-political supporters.

[Stitch]

BA should have ordered the 747-8I along with the A380-800, but at least they are addressing the need. The 77W should be within 10 seats of the 744 and they can swap out WT seats for more F, CW and WT+ which is where the money and the demand is. And BA needs something to service current 744 cities that will not see the A388.

I still expect BA to order the A350-1000, but they likely want to make sure Airbus can deliver the goods.

I am sure BA received a good price, but we need to remember that the 77W is very much in demand right now. Boeing is not going to shave, say, $200 million in profit off the 77W order if they only owe BA, say, $100 million in compensation.

[CXBoi]

A OW partner? IMO the likely candidates would be JL or CX.

My bet is JL as we have a load of ancient 744 that need replacing.

for BA ordering my favorite Boeing!

[DAL767-400ER]

Excellent news, and given BA's large 744 fleet, IMHO those 4 options have a very good chance of being firmed as well .

And they got 2010 slots. Very nice for BA. This deal must have been on the go for a while as I don't think 2010 slots for the 773ER are very common at all, if they exist at all.

2010 slots for 777s are pretty much only available if you get them from another airline, or if you have some options with firm delivery slots, though I'm not sure if that also applies to e.g. convert a 772 option into a 77W order.

[Jet Blast]

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2008/q3/080801b_nr.html

The Boeing Company [NYSE: BA]. is pleased that British Airways has reinforced its long-standing relationship with Boeing by agreeing to purchase Boeing 777-300ERs for its long-haul fleet. Boeing looks forward to finalizing the contractual details of British Airways' selection.

[TheMightyM]

If this involves an OW partner, it would almost certainly be CX not JAL. JAL only has five 773ERs on order, with one of those due for delivery anytime now. CX on the other hand has 22 773ERs on order plus six still unexercised purchase rights.

Also, doesn't British Airways have a few (four?) unexercised 777 options as well?

[Stitch]

(D)oesn't British Airways have a few (four?) unexercised 777 options as well?

I believe they actually have four delivery slots, which is likely why they can get the planes so soon and might have influenced BA's decision.

[Infusion]

^

The four 777-200ER options that British took in early 2007 were allowed to expire once the airline had bought 787s. The -300ERs are a separate deal.

Infusion

[longreach]

It has been reported on a.net that 2 of the orders are recent listed UFOs and 4 are from GECAS. Don't know if the GECAS orders were from another airline and these have been reallocated to BA, or whether GECAS had options for 2010 773ER slots.
I have no idea if this scenario is correct.

[TheMightyM]

^The problem with that scenario is that the Boeing press release is standard issue for when a final contract hasn't been signed yet... The BA presentation says "6 B777-300ER firm orders, options for 4 more" -- that to me also does not suggest a lease.

GECAS does not have enough 777 on order to lease four planes to BA without either placing an order itself or reallocating frames from another customer.

[Infusion]

The problem with that scenario is that the Boeing press release is standard issue for when a final contract hasn't been signed yet... The BA presentation says "6 B777-300ER firm orders, options for 4 more" -- that to me also does not suggest a lease.

GECAS does not have enough 777 on order to lease four planes to BA without either placing an order itself or reallocating frames from another customer.

If a source external to both Boeing and British is to be believed, British will do 2+4 from Boeing and 4 GECAS.

How many frames will GECAS need to purchase to have feedstock for British? Could they convert from 777F?

Infusion

[TheMightyM]

As of June 30, 2008, Boeing shows GECAS with 11 777-300ER and 12 777F still on order. I have them as having outstanding deals for:

777-300ER: Emirates 5; Philippine Airlines 2; Egyptair 6
777F: LAN 2; China Cargo 6

So 23 planes on order, 21 with customers. They could convert Fs to -300ERs; they in fact converted two frames in the fall. Even taht would still leave them two frames short. And yes, there is a model mismatch (more 777-300ER customers than airframes on order), which has existed since late last year. So at some point something has to happen in any case regarding GECAS, the question is just what...

Even if 2 + 4 from Boeing and 4 from GECAS were true, the wording of Boeing's press release very strongly suggests that British Airways' order has not been booked yet. I suppose the 2 recent two frame 777 UFO order could be for GECAS to give them enough frames for everuone (with a conversion from Fs to -300ER) but that's certainly not a necessity -- any order for them could be equally pending.

[DAL767-400ER]

This should clear things up a bit:
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/080807/aqth529.html?.v=16

SEATTLE, Aug. 7 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Boeing (NYSE: BA - News) and British Airways have signed an order for two Boeing 777-300ER jetliners valued at $529 million at list prices.

Boeing also announced that GE Commercial Aviation Services (GECAS) has purchased two 777-300ERs, airplanes that were previously listed as an unidentified order on the Boeing Web site. The airplanes are two of four 777s that BA has agreed to lease from GECAS -- including two 777s ordered in 2007 -- as part of its recent commitment to the 777-300ER.

British Airways also secured options for four additional 777-300ERs directly with Boeing.

"Boeing and British Airways have a relationship that stretches back over the last 50 years and this order is a reaffirmation of this ongoing partnership," said Marlin Dailey, Boeing Commercial Airplanes vice president of Sales for Europe, Russia and Central Asia. "The 777-300ER offers exceptional fuel economy and environmental credentials and will integrate seamlessly into British Airways' existing twin-aisle fleet.

"In addition, our key partner GECAS continues to demonstrate confidence in the 777. With the 777s GECAS has ordered in the last two years, it has created five new 777 customers. Three of the five new customers have subsequently purchased new 777s directly from Boeing," Dailey said.

The two airplanes GECAS ordered are valued at $529 million at catalog prices and raise to 25 the number of 777s (Freighters and 777-300ERs) that GECAS has purchased since November 2006. The 25 airplanes have been placed on long-term lease with six different carriers, including British Airways.

[TheMightyM]

Yes, that does help -- though there's still a mismatch between the known customers and orders by type. While GECAS does have 25 777s on order and 25 know leases, these now break down as 15 777-300ER and 10 777F on order with customers taking 17 777-300ER and 8 777F. And the answer, according to the PR release isn't an additional customer, so I can only conclude that at some point in the future GECAS still has to convert two more 777F orders to 777-300ERs.

[DaveT321]

Yes, that does help -- though there's still a mismatch between the known customers and orders by type. While GECAS does have 25 777s on order and 25 know leases, these now break down as 15 777-300ER and 10 777F on order with customers taking 17 777-300ER and 8 777F. And the answer, according to the PR release isn't an additional customer, so I can only conclude that at some point in the future GECAS still has to convert two more 777F orders to 777-300ERs.

Boeing has now made the adjustment you're looking for. Two 777F orders placed on 19/06/07 were changed in July 2008 to 2 777-300ER orders. GECAS 777 commitment is now 10 777-300ER (14 delivered) and 10 777F (0 delivered).

Dave

[mbflyer]

Yes, that does help -- though there's still a mismatch between the known customers and orders by type. While GECAS does have 25 777s on order and 25 know leases, these now break down as 15 777-300ER and 10 777F on order with customers taking 17 777-300ER and 8 777F. And the answer, according to the PR release isn't an additional customer, so I can only conclude that at some point in the future GECAS still has to convert two more 777F orders to 777-300ERs.

Boeing has now made the adjustment you're looking for. Two 777F orders placed on 19/06/07 were changed in July 2008 to 2 777-300ER orders. GECAS 777 commitment is now 10 777-300ER (14 delivered) and 10 777F (0 delivered).

Dave

The more interesting question is how many 773ERs will ultimatley be ordered given the large number of 744s in BA's fleet. That is, does BA commit to the 773ER or play the field and wait and see how the A350-1000 turns out?

[Jacobin777]

Yes, that does help -- though there's still a mismatch between the known customers and orders by type. While GECAS does have 25 777s on order and 25 know leases, these now break down as 15 777-300ER and 10 777F on order with customers taking 17 777-300ER and 8 777F. And the answer, according to the PR release isn't an additional customer, so I can only conclude that at some point in the future GECAS still has to convert two more 777F orders to 777-300ERs.

Boeing has now made the adjustment you're looking for. Two 777F orders placed on 19/06/07 were changed in July 2008 to 2 777-300ER orders. GECAS 777 commitment is now 10 777-300ER (14 delivered) and 10 777F (0 delivered).

Dave

The more interesting question is how many 773ERs will ultimatley be ordered given the large number of 744s in BA's fleet. That is, does BA commit to the 773ER or play the field and wait and see how the A350-1000 turns out?

Given BA's recent ordering history, it would be odd they would order a plane which isn't even remotely close to being built, let alone fly (regardless of what guarantees Airbus gives) and which they wouldn't be able to get until 2016-2017.....adding 6 B773ER's to the fleet as well as options for 4 more from Boeing, I think we'll see BA ordering more B773ER's.

[DaveT321]

Boeing has now made the adjustment you're looking for. Two 777F orders placed on 19/06/07 were changed in July 2008 to 2 777-300ER orders. GECAS 777 commitment is now 10 777-300ER (14 delivered) and 10 777F (0 delivered).

Dave

Sorry, there was a typo in my posting. This should have read:

GECAS 777 commitment is now 29 777-300ER (14 delivered) and 10 777F (0 delivered).

My apologies.

[TheMightyM]

Sorry, there was a typo in my posting. This should have read:

GECAS 777 commitment is now 29 777-300ER (14 delivered) and 10 777F (0 delivered).

My apologies.

Dave,

The problem though is that even after GECAS' latest transactions, there's an imbalance. They have 15 777-300ER and 10 777F on order -- but their customers are slated to take 17 777-300ERs and 8 777F.

Michael

[Stitch]

BA's 777-300ER acquisition does not rule out A350: Walsh

British Airways is still considering the Airbus A350 XWB as part of its 'big twin' fleet evaluation, stressing that its Boeing 777-300ER acquisition is not a pre-emptive decision.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2009/...a350-walsh.html



I think the 777-300ER has at least a decent shot at winning this one.

First, GE has improved the SFC of the GE90-11xB engines by around 2%.

Second, many other airlines like SQ, CX, NH and JL have all replaced a good chunk of their 747-400 fleet with 777-300ERs in the past few years. The 77W offers similar total payload lift, similar range, and similar premium cabin seating while the reduced Economy class seating improves yields by tailoring capacity to actual demand and not the artifical demand created by lowering fares to fill seats.

Third, EK has said their A350-1000's will have a total payload closer to their 777-200ER fleet then their 777-300ER fleet. They also do not operate the 747-400, nor does two of the three other A350-1000 customers. OZ does operate the 747-400 (2) and 747-400M (3), but they are said to be returning the 747-400s to their lessors and are converting the 747-400Ms into 747-400BCFs. They are rumored to have ordered one 777-300ER and will have a total of 12 777-200ERs, including a number of recent builds. So it is not inconceivable that they see the A350-1000 as a 777-200ER replacement.

Taken together, and considering the high premium cabin seat counts and the weight of the new FIRST and Club World seats being installed now and/or coming down the pike, BA might very well feel the greater floorspace and (possible) payload lift of the 777-300ER makes it a more logical choice as a 747-400 replacement then the A350-1000. And BA would still have 12 (or more) A380-800s in their fleet to handle the routes that do see consistently strong positive-revenue Economy cabin travel.

This post has been edited by Stitch: Jan 12 2009, 11:33 PM

[Aurora]

Wouldn't BA have to wait until at least 2017 for the A350XWB-1000? If there are some deferrals or cancellations for the 777-300ER, BA could be in a position to pick up those slots. Just a thought.

[CoachBoy]

Wouldn't BA have to wait until at least 2017 for the A350XWB-1000? If there are some deferrals or cancellations for the 777-300ER, BA could be in a position to pick up those slots. Just a thought.

With the recent FedEx deferrals, and the commonality between the 77L, 77F and 77W, can these 77F slots be converted to 77W with minimal fuss?

[BOEING777]

Third, EK has said their A350-1000's will have a total payload closer to their 777-200ER fleet then their 777-300ER fleet. .....

....considering the high premium cabin seat counts and the weight of the new FIRST and Club World seats being installed now and/or coming down the pike, BA might very well feel the greater floorspace and (possible) payload lift of the 777-300ER makes it a more logical choice as a 747-400 replacement then the A350-1000.

Hit the nail on the head, and thats before I say anything about the abysmal overweight issue and sub 6,500nm range the A350-1000 is struggling with...

[Jacobin777]

Third, EK has said their A350-1000's will have a total payload closer to their 777-200ER fleet then their 777-300ER fleet. .....

....considering the high premium cabin seat counts and the weight of the new FIRST and Club World seats being installed now and/or coming down the pike, BA might very well feel the greater floorspace and (possible) payload lift of the 777-300ER makes it a more logical choice as a 747-400 replacement then the A350-1000.

Hit the nail on the head, and thats before I say anything about the abysmal overweight issue and sub 6,500nm range the A350-1000 is struggling with...

However, even at 6500nm from LHR, it should do for BA's routes..

That being said, I still see this going towards the B77W...

[Didier Chabanne]

http://www.cardatabase.net/modifiedairline...php?id=00010143


Hello

there are good chance that the new B777-300ERs will replace the B747-400

thanks Didier Chabanne





ps. Let me know if my English is good if not give me a website translation Please

[ProudWings]

your english is FAR superior to my french...

[CXBoi]

Hit the nail on the head, and thats before I say anything about the abysmal overweight issue and sub 6,500nm range the A350-1000 is struggling with...

Unsubstantiated drivel!!

[BOEING777]

Go talk to Airbus.

[DaveT321]

Sorry, there was a typo in my posting. This should have read:

GECAS 777 commitment is now 29 777-300ER (14 delivered) and 10 777F (0 delivered).

My apologies.

Dave,

The problem though is that even after GECAS' latest transactions, there's an imbalance. They have 15 777-300ER and 10 777F on order -- but their customers are slated to take 17 777-300ERs and 8 777F.

Michael

Boeing have made a further adjustment in their March 2009 database changes. GECAS have changed 2 more 777F to 2 777-300ER. Total now 31 777-300ER (with 19 delivered) and 8 777F (0 delivered).

Sorted.

Dave