http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews...20080807?rpc=44

So, both are too expensive, does that mean that both A and B don't plan on getting a$$-raped financially like they have been by EZY and Ryanair previously?

My thoughts exactly.

I highly doubt Ryanair are in a position to take delivery of 140 aircraft over the next four years. As usual, he is talking out of his backside.

all is good until the cancellations start to fly and AB (and maybe boeing) needs to keep its factories full. The both will be bragging how they like to get A$$ Raped

We all know that profitable operation for airlines is a very thin line, at the best of times.

But "I prefer to go with the one that charges 10 bucks a seat less, O'Leary said". Think about that.

150 seats x $10 = $ 1,500.00 per aircraft
$ 1,500 x 200 aircraft.

Gee, is RyanAir's financial position so precarious that it depends on $300,000.00 .. over what would be a multi-billion dollar order ? Chicken feed, or is that 'ego-feed' ?

Zip it, O'Leary. These homespun (and largely irrelevant) homilies are making you sound more like SRB every day.

If you want to save more, then think about ordering in .. say .. 12 months time, when order cancellations start coming in .. in serious numbers.

My calculations show that Ryanair have a fleet of about 185 737s currently, with a backlog of 117 PLUS options for 132 more, so he's in no major hurry.

One thing is for sure: Boeing do not owe him or his nasty airline anything and he'll never get pricing anywhere near the levels he did in 2002. And there are more than a few people at Boeing who don't particular feel comfortable being connected with an airline that is so fast and loose with safety issues.

As for Airbus, I think Leahy made his feelings on Ryanair pretty clear the other day! Should Ryanair get no joy, I could perhaps see them ordering the new Russian 150-180 seater (Irkut MS-21) that's due for launch around 2015/2016. Now that would really put the cat amongst the pigeons!!

He must have forgot what he said back in 2002:


It's obvious he's kissed the Blarney Stone...

Maybe he has, but... his profits and his position in the industry in Europe backs up his earlier statement.

He contradicts his earlier statement:

where before he said:


Both statements can't be true.

One was before receiving the planes and the other after

Jokes aside. What it really shows is that it is all about what you can do for me now, not what you did yesterday.

Well, Ryanair put 180 seats on their 738s, so you might have to recalculate. They can be $10 cheaper per sector as they more than make it up on the in-flight revenue, which makes up a huge chunk of their business. I would also assume they get a kick out of all the transfers from their remote airport to city transfers. Clever airline, with a true lo-co base, but sometimes a little bit deceptive with the "true" cost. MOL obviously thinks their business relies on them offering the cheapest fare in the market, and in Europe, I think he is correct most of the time.

Ryanair confirmed last week (March 26) in Dublin that they're planing on ordering between 150-200 aircraft for delivery between 2012-2017. This order is to take place by the end of 2009.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/Intern...how/4710182.cms

I think O'Leary and Tilton are both overestimating just how desperate Airbus and Boeing are to sell future product right now.

As robertkc noted in Reply #6, FR is sitting on 122 737NGs waiting for delivery over the next 30+ months, which is four per month. He's also sitting on 84 options (per Wiki) which would be another 21 months of deliveries (assuming he sticks to ~4 per month) which would cover him through 2014-2015. I'm going to hazard a guess those options are at similar prices to what he paid for his original order and with the economy the way it is, Boeing's likely getting less money on the 737NGs they are delivering now than those delivered earlier (since evidently the final purchase price takes into account such things).

I couldn't agree more.

However, it's pretty tempting to try and secure a deal with both of them with a slightly uncertain economic future on the horizon, isn't it?

I'm not saying that as how I would look at it, BUT......

I stand by my comments in post #6 - Ryanair's suppliers, regardless of who they are be it airports, ground handlers, employees, or in this case aircraft manufacturers, need to be VERY CAREFUL! Ryanair are happy to see drive their suppliers to the wall and happily push them over the wall, and the industry is slowly waking up to this fact. Deal with them and you dance with the devil. Due to their litigiousness nature, it's not possible (yet) to uncover the full scale of their behaviour, but when they eventually crash, the gloves may just come off.

Your first sentence is certainly 2x2. Also, it would seem carriers are having less issues in gaining finance for new planes. Perhaps there is a prayer for UAL, and maybe American will be emboldened to expand its plans more hastily in the better lending envronment. Strike while the iron is hot.


LONDON (Dow Jones)--Ryanair Holdings PLC (RYA.DB) said Monday it has secured a $1.5 billion financing deal with three unnamed banks until the end of September 2010.

The Irish low-cost airline will use new funds to help fund the purchase of 55 new aircraft, Chief Financial Officer Howard Millar said.

In a previous deal, Ryanair secured financing until June 2009 for 67 aircraft, of which 30 were financed through a deal with Royal Bank of Scotland Group PLC (RBS.LN), while BNP Paribas (BNP.FR) also lent money. A Japanese bank had also helped finance the purchase of six planes, as did a syndicate.

Earlier Monday, Deputy Chief Executive Michael Cawley said talks with Airbus and Boeing Co. (BA) about new aircraft orders were "going nowhere," but added that the airline was in no hurry to make orders. He said any order could be for as few as 100 aircraft.

Millar later added that plane manufacturer Airbus wouldn't talk to Ryanair about future aircraft orders due to differences on pricing.

Company Web site: www.ryanair.com

-By Kaveri Niththyananthan, Dow Jones Newswires; 4420 7842 9299; kaveri.niththyananthan@dowjones.com

(END) Dow Jones Newswires

July 27, 2009 10:25 ET (14:25 G

So the talks are "going nowhere"? So much for public negotiations. Airbus won't bite; neither will Boeing. What's next? Sukhoi's so-called Superjet? Now there's a situation where O'Leary may have some "walk away" power.

That's because Airbus are undoubtedly INSULTED by Ryanair's idea of 'negotiation' - which is basically: we'll tell you the price we're prepared to pay (which is well below industry average and results in our competitors subsidising our aircraft), and if you don't like it, we won't talk to you.

Well done Airbus for standing up to those bunch of c*nts... and their disgusting tactics

Its not like Airbus actually gives a hoot about pricing (case in point, BA's A380's, Easyjet's A319's et al.)

Further, FR secured financing (yesterday) on 50 more 737-800's, to suggest discussions with Airbus were even serious plays right into FR's hands of media manipulation.

That's a bit rich considering the pricing Ryanair got from Boeing for the 738's!

Its not uncommon for Boeing to do such deals - I daresay NH is benefitting from the 787 delays as well in a handsome manner.

Key difference between the Easyjet and Ryanair deals is that the 737-800's werent subsidised, as Im sure you well know. Discounted yes, - subsidised, no.

Subsidised by whom? And don't give me the whole EU taxpayer bullsh!t...

^

Please re-read what I wrote - I didnt claim that Easyjet A319's were subsidised - plenty others have. I stated thet FR's 738's weren't subsidised.

From memory, the US alleges in its WTO filing against EADS that the Easyjet deal worked out to USD$18 million per aircraft. Perhaps it wasn't subsidized; perhaps it wasn't a loss lead. But if that number is correct, then it wasn't the most profitable Airbus deal on record.

Without wanting to get dragged into the extraordinarilarily dull WTO case....

from a commercial standpoint and having seen the easyJet contract and fully aware of what Ryanair paid...$18m is a ridiculous figure. If it's true, then Boeing's "loss lead" deal with Ryanair is just as bad, if not worse...

Again, from memory, the Ryanair purchase of 737s worked out to $26 million per copy. If anyone wants to bother to check these out, please do so.

From what I remember, it was <$25 million/bird ,not to mention all of the other costs (training, running two types of fleets etc.) which was absorbed by Airbus.

As reported today on Bloomberg :

Ryanair Holdings Plc (RYA ID): Europe's biggest discount airline may suspend expansion beginning in 2012 and use the cash generated to pay dividends if it can't negotiate cheaper prices for planes. The stock fell 7 cents, or 2 percent, to 3.39 euros.

Playing hardball perhaps?

I'm sure he is, but that he has to just shows that Boeing and Airbus are not desperate for orders at whatever terms he is demanding.

And it may not just be the price he wants to pay on existing models that is giving Boeing and Airbus pause.

With his current 737 backlog, O'Leary's new order would probably have delivery slots extending into the timeframe of the 737's replacement. If O'Leary is demanding the right to convert 737NG slots to 737RS slots at the same price, Boeing is likely balking since their total costs per frame for the 737RS will be much higher then for the 737NG which would put them well into the red.

Airbus likely knows he's as serious about buying their current equipment as Iberia is about buying Boeing 737NGs - not at all. So O'Leary might be trying the same with Airbus and asking for A320 deliveries starting in the late 2010's with a clause for any new model that Airbus could be developing. That way, he doesn't have to take any A320s (he can always defer if Airbus has not yet launched the A320RS when his slots come due) and can start his 737 replacement with the A320NR.

Ryanair announced today that they are no longer seeking to acquire up to 200 additional Boeing 737-800s unless Boeing improves the terms and conditions of their presented deal prior to the next meeting of the FR board on December 17. FR is happy with the price Boeing has offered.

FR has re-sold 25 of their 238 delivered 737-800s to date and with air travel starting to recover, perhaps Boeing fears that FR will continue to release "previously flown" 738s into the market, undercutting the demand for new 738s delivered from Boeing. The average age of FR's fleet is just under three years and their oldest frames (sans one) will celebrate their seventh birthday next month.

And for those hoping FR will drop Boeing in favor of the A320, John Leahey noted that he “would not have a problem selling aircraft to O’Leary at reasonable prices, but I have not seen anything reasonable from him.”


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