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robertkc
QUOTE
TUI Travel to cancel 10 787s

TUI Travel is to cancel 10 of the 23 Boeing 787s which the tour operator has on order, but plans to add purchase rights for another 13.

The company became one of the first European customers for the jet when First Choice Airways - with which TUI subsequently merged - committed to the type in 2004.

First Choice firmed an initial order for six 787s in 2005, and became the launch customer for the General Electric GENx engine on the twin-jet.

It had firmed another six options by March 2007, when the merger with TUI was unveiled.

These were combined with a previously-undisclosed 787 order from TUI giving the combined company, TUI Travel, a total of 23 of the jets.

But in a trading update today TUI Travel says: "We have been in extensive discussions with Boeing...and it is the intention of both parties to agree to cancel 10 of the 23 787 aircraft that we had on order."

It says it will add purchase rights, with no obligation, for a further 13 787s. "This optimises the flexibility around our long-haul capacity and we expect to receive delivery of the first 787 aircraft in early 2012," it adds.

TUI Travel also insists that, despite the decision, the 787 is the "ideal aircraft" for its long-haul requirements.

"Not only will it be able to fly greater distances than equivalent aircraft today but it will do so with greater fuel efficiency and additional comfort for our customers," it says.


Source: Air Transport Intelligence news
kimshep
Its emerging this morning that VN (Vietnam Airlines) has also gone 'public' with its dissatisfaction over the B787 issue. I wonder whether this will herald another set of cancellations ?

Boeing really needs to get 'on-top' of this. The credibility issue is now assuming more prominence (unfairly, but justified) in many carrier's eyes, than the actual aircraft - which I fully expect to be superb. I'd give Boeing an A+ for creativity with the design of this program .. but an E- for execution.

Fortunately, the sheer brilliance of the B787 program design idea and it's enormous launch success will, in history's wake, overshadow the delays. A major pity that the program has been defined by delays and production / sourcing SNAFUs though - because these issues go to the heart of Boeing's ability to execute in a creditable and efficient manner.

I ultimately expect Boeing to pull so much of this program back 'in-house' over the next few years. The trumpted cost-savings due to outsourcing .. may ultimately be eclipsed by the efficiencies of bringing the program under control.
Stitch
That's the trick, kimshep. Everyone canceling is doing it for one of two reasons:
  1. They can't afford it.
  2. They can't wait for it.

So far, no customer has canceled because they feel the plane is a "dud". If they buy anything else, they're effectively "settling" for a platform they feel is technically inferior to the 787, but is nonetheless available.
BeauNG
QUOTE (Stitch @ Sep 29 2009, 05:34 PM) *
2. They can't wait for it.

What could they get any sooner?
robertkc
QUOTE (BeauNG @ Sep 30 2009, 02:50 AM) *
QUOTE (Stitch @ Sep 29 2009, 05:34 PM) *
2. They can't wait for it.

What could they get any sooner?

A330s - Look at VS. They're getting their 330s next year (2010).
DAL767-400ER
QUOTE (robertkc @ Sep 30 2009, 08:07 AM) *
QUOTE (BeauNG @ Sep 30 2009, 02:50 AM) *
QUOTE (Stitch @ Sep 29 2009, 05:34 PM) *
2. They can't wait for it.

What could they get any sooner?

A330s - Look at VS. They're getting their 330s next year (2010).

Though not every potential switchover candidate from the 787 to the A330 has a boatload of quads on order that they have no need for either and thus might cancel shifty.gif . I strongly doubt carriers like Ethiopian, which has also been reassessing their 787 order, would get as early delivery slots as VS, because a) they are not such a large Airbus customer, and b) the A330 line is pretty much sold out for the next years.
Stitch
JQ is also now getting A330-200s instead of 787-8s.
BeauNG
QUOTE
robertkc
A330s - Look at VS. They're getting their 330s next year (2010).
When did they order them?

QUOTE
Stitch:
JQ is also now getting A330-200s instead of 787-8s.
When did they order them?
Given the A330 order backlog, how long will an airline canceling their 787's today have to wait for A330's instead?
Stitch
For JQ - August 2009 and the first plane will arrive in November 2010.

For VS - June 2009 with deliveries in 2011 and 2012.

And yes, both are leases (in VS' case, six were purchased by VS but are now going to be sold and leased-back), but VS is taking the A333s because the 787-9s are going to take too long to arrive. And the QF Group announced when they canceled part of the 787-8 order that the planes they were canceling were meant for JQ and that the A330s will start services planned for the 787-8, which will no longer be part of JQ's fleet plans in favor of 787-9s in 2013-2014.
robertkc
QUOTE (BeauNG @ Sep 30 2009, 04:28 PM) *
QUOTE
robertkc
A330s - Look at VS. They're getting their 330s next year (2010).
When did they order them?


3 months ago - in June. Mind you the order had been in the pipeline for many months prior to announcement...
BeauNG
Neither one of you answered the question:

QUOTE
Given the A330 order backlog, how long will an airline canceling their 787's today have to wait for A330's instead?

I realize it depends, that certain favored customers get to jump the queue sometimes, and there can be some swapping of delivery dates, but is it realistic that most could cancel their 787s and get A330s any sooner?
Stitch
QUOTE (BeauNG @ Sep 30 2009, 08:28 AM) *
Given the A330 order backlog, how long will an airline canceling their 787's today have to wait for A330's instead?


As of the end of August, the A330 family backlog stood at just under 400 planes for all models (A330-200, A330-200F and A330-300). I believe Airbus is at an eight-frame per month delivery rate so in theory they could be waiting upwards of four years for their first planes - so late 2013.

By Boeing's own admission, they likely will not start deliveries of the 787 until the end of 2010 and even then, it will likely be just a handful of planes. Boeing has also admitted that the single FAL can't deliver more than 7 frames a month once it reaches peak production levels (which likely won't happen until late 2011 or early 2012) and the second FAL won't be ready before 2012 to 2013.

So I expect that unless you are one of the first 100 787-8 frames or first 10 787-9 frames, you can get an A330-200 or an A330-300 anywhere from many months to many years earlier.
BeauNG
QUOTE (Stitch @ Oct 2 2009, 01:34 PM) *
So I expect that unless you are one of the first 100 787-8 frames or first 10 787-9 frames, you can get an A330-200 or an A330-300 anywhere from many months to many years earlier.

Thank you, Stitch...
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